Farley`s Dodge Diplomat Forum

Forum Index => The Garage => Topic started by: Rox86 on September 01, 2019, 18:53:18

Title: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Rox86 on September 01, 2019, 18:53:18
The wife and I are trying to figure out which way we're going to go with our Fifth. Before I hear about a 360 or magnum being cheaper and easier I'll start off with the fact we are in CA. Trust me, if I could I'd already have a 5.9 magnum ready for a swap.
Engine swaps are legal here but two things.
1. Has to be the same year or newer. So 360's or big blocks are out.
2. Has to be from the same smog class. So magnum engines are out. (passenger car vs light duty truck)
The next v8 that any Mopar sedan had is the 5.7 hemi and we've been really tempted by it.
I know there are motor mounts that will adapt it for a F-body engine bay and there's a company that makes a flexplate and starter to use the hemi with the 904 trans. But I've never seen one in an M-body.


Anyone have experience with this swap? Either to help or talk me out of it  :biggrin:  I'm sure the ecu and fuel system will be the hardest challenge. But what else does it take to drop a modern hemi into one of these cars? I know the rear end will have to be beefier and subframe connectors will help a great deal to, but I'm just focusing on actually getting it in the car running and driving for now.


I may add, this is a few years down the road and definitely need time to save up.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 270SE on September 02, 2019, 01:09:30
F, J, and M bodies interchange front and rear suspension components completely. The engine mounts are basically the same for most rear-drive passenger cars from 1973 to 1989. That makes still a mid sump oil pan unlike the front and rear sump pans used by 3G Hemis. Wiring up the ecu et all isn't so bad if you go ahead and get the underhood fuse box and as much wiring as possible from the donor car.

An 8-1/4 would hold up to a 3G Hemi just fine.

So why not swap a 5.9 Magnum, dress it up as a same year cop car motor, and call it good?
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Rox86 on September 02, 2019, 06:52:44
F, J, and M bodies interchange front and rear suspension components completely. The engine mounts are basically the same for most rear-drive passenger cars from 1973 to 1989. That makes still a mid sump oil pan unlike the front and rear sump pans used by 3G Hemis. Wiring up the ecu et all isn't so bad if you go ahead and get the underhood fuse box and as much wiring as possible from the donor car.

An 8-1/4 would hold up to a 3G Hemi just fine.

So why not swap a 5.9 Magnum, dress it up as a same year cop car motor, and call it good?


If I swap a 5.9 it's going to have to blow the same smog numbers as the stock 5.2. For smog they put the sniffer up the tailpipe and put the car in the Dyno. Where I live specifically too the cops have been known to set up smog check points much like dui check points. With the Hemi the car will be smogged to the hemi standards, not an 1987 318 standards.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Darth-Car on September 03, 2019, 19:15:25
I have a 5.7 HEMI in My Beautiful Bride's 08 Aspen.  I am not thinking that a 904 can handle this monster.  I would want to mate it to a 727.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 03, 2019, 19:23:28
I have a 5.7 HEMI in My Beautiful Bride's 08 Aspen.  I am not thinking that a 904 can handle this monster.  I would want to mate it to a 727.
X2
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Mike on September 04, 2019, 17:44:03

If I swap a 5.9 it's going to have to blow the same smog numbers as the stock 5.2. For smog they put the sniffer up the tailpipe and put the car in the Dyno. Where I live specifically too the cops have been known to set up smog check points much like dui check points. With the Hemi the car will be smogged to the hemi standards, not an 1987 318 standards.

My 360 with 4 barrel passes with 318 numbers. The big thing is to have a functioning cat and EGR system.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Mike on September 04, 2019, 17:45:38
X2


X3
I've killed enough 904s with 360. They might be less weight and rob less HP with smaller internals but I'd rather have reliability.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 04, 2019, 18:11:23
I have a 5.7 HEMI in My Beautiful Bride's 08 Aspen.  I am not thinking that a 904 can handle this monster.  I would want to mate it to a 727.
He might as well start looking for a 8 1/4 or 8 3/4 also.
That 7 1/4 is sure to grenade with a Hemi.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 04, 2019, 18:15:28
My 360 with 4 barrel passes with 318 numbers. The big thing is to have a functioning cat and EGR system.
That's the way to go in my opinion.
Were not saying Magnum. A LA 360 will use several of the external parts you already have on the 318.
FAR LESS money for the can of worms your about to open with a Hemi swap.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Rox86 on September 04, 2019, 19:33:05
With all due respect to everyone. A 360 is not a legal swap in California. If it was I'd already be doing it. It may make better smog numbers than a 318 with work but it's not worth getting caught in CA.
With a hemi I can go to a CA smog referee pay my $25 for the inspection and the car is legal. As long as the of equipment on the hemi is still present.
I plan on keeping this car for as long as I can. I don't plan on a hemi swap tomorrow but definitely something I want to do in the future.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Mike on September 04, 2019, 23:59:35
Not being in California but seeing a fair number of swaps going on and different vehicles from there I'd wonder how stringent they really are with the truck thing as people throw 350s and LS1 engines in everything and don't seem to have any problem with licensing and smog.
The plus about 360 is essentially no-one would be the wiser. They are identical to 318 and an inspector would really have to know what they are looking at to figure out there's something going on. The downside is they are worse on gas.
Hemi would be a cool swap for sure. I know the engine mounts are available but I wouldn't think too much about that, if someone can do the other fabrication needed to get it fitting in the car it wouldn't be too big of a deal to fab up their own mounts too.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Rox86 on September 05, 2019, 07:13:43
I used to own a '79 El Camino. Chevy is a way different world than Mopar. Everyone and their mother makes speed parts that come with smog certifications. I had a 350 in mine and I could do heads, cam, exhaust, intake, carb and it still be smog legal. Nobody makes smog legal parts for Mopars.


Unlike Mopar, Chevy V8's didn't die in 1989. So there's a lot more engine choices to choose from. Both truck and car. Not to mention everyone makes full crate motors that can be smogged. And everything pre-1975 is completely exempt from smog, so you can do anything you want to it. The law doesn't say the swapped engine has to be from same manufacturer. So I could swap in a LS1 and still get it certified. Heck I go throw a 2jz in the car and can still get it certified. But I'd rather keep it Mopar.  :biggrin:


I throw a 360 and still can't throw speed parts at it cause it'll change the smog numbers. I'd have to run the same carburetor and ignition system. Still have to run all 3 cats.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 05, 2019, 07:33:41
Unlike Mopar, Chevy V8's didn't die in 1989.   
I can see now that your are one of those that will have to learn the hard way.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Rox86 on September 05, 2019, 08:03:57
I can see now that your are one of those that will have to learn the hard way.
My mistake, I meant in passenger cars. Chrysler didn't offer a v8 passenger car until the 2006 charger. Again going back to classes of smog in CA.


I know a hemi is the hardest swap out of all the choices. But I was trying to figure out what exactly makes it hard. Wiring? Fabricating? Expensive? Just thought a hemi would be something different in a world of LS-swaps.


I'm okay with the stock 318. I love that motor. If I could just build up the stock 318 to about 250-300 hp I'd be happy. Even just bone stock I'd be happy. But they aren't going to keep making replacemt parts for it forever. After owning a hemi charger, I thought it'd be a fun swap.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 05, 2019, 12:10:22
I'm okay with the stock 318. I love that motor. If I could just build up the stock 318 to about 250-300 hp I'd be happy.
You hit the nail on the head when you said EXPENSIVE on the Hemi swap.
A modified 318 is the way to go for that car.
I highly doubt there will be a shortage of LA motor parts anytime soon.
Build yourself a 318 on a stand in the Garage until you have gathered all the parts needed before you yank the engine. that way you can still drive the car.
There are videos on you tube about the defects of the 5.7 and should be studied before jumping into one. Uncle Tony's Garage is one of them that talks about it.

Machine shop work, 30 over Pistons one paycheck, cam and lifters the next etc. until you have all you need to pull it off.
I have been doing it that way for over 41 years and it hurts less doing it little by little.I myself love the 360 and have several vehicles with them.
If you get a high enough compression pistons you can run 360 heads, preferred the later F.I 308 castings. because using 360 heads on a 318 will drop the compression one point.If they are a 9.5.1 it will drop it to 8.5.1 with the 360 heads. which is a good street able pump gas compression.
Don't go over a 270 for a cam or you will need a stall torque convertor for the trans.300 horse is not hard to achieve done right.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Rox86 on September 05, 2019, 12:33:37
I'll probably just do that. We've been looking to move out of state for awhile. One it's expensive here. And two, smog laws  :p but I don't tell me wife that one. I'll just hold off on engine plans.


 The car needs suspension and other stuff. Just want to know where I was going with this car. If hemi then I'd look at more heavy duty suspension and brakes. If stock 318 then I'd go with just replacement parts.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 05, 2019, 13:03:47
A good upgraded suspension is always a good idea no matter what engine build you end up doing.

Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 05, 2019, 13:12:54
What is the cut off year for smog there?
Like in Canada its 87 from what they tell me.
Leaving California would probably be the best decision you ever will make.
Record numbers of company's are leaving too and moving to less regulated states.


Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Rox86 on September 05, 2019, 14:06:31
1975 for gas and 1990-something iirc for diesel in California. My wife and I are working on moving.


And yes I'm going to be putting the best suspension and stuff I can afford. But if I keep the 140 hp stock 318 then I probably wont be doing subframe connectors or some full Hotchkiss/QA1 build  :biggrin:
Some nice 5 leaf set up at the back and maybe poly bushings at the front.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: DobaMark on September 05, 2019, 16:49:06
California is pretty ruthless on smog.
i'd leave the car stock and use the money to move.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 05, 2019, 22:52:32
California is pretty ruthless on smog.
i'd leave the car stock and use the money to move.
:thumb:
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: lsm360 on September 07, 2019, 12:23:07
Mopar Performance makes an all inclusive crate hemi for older cars with modules, sensors, accelerator cables, wire harness, and all those peripheral items that are usually the ones that drive you absolutely nuts. However, it's stated for 1975 and older, but I've wondered for quite sometime how adaptable this would be to an M or F body. While I love the 318/360, you have to admit it would be fun to have a smooth idling, easy starting in all weather, fuel efficient (relatively speaking), beast like this in an M or F. You know, just to go along with our other cars that retain the old school original engines.


https://www.motortrend.com/news/mopar-launches-modern-v-8-crate-engine-kits-for-classic-muscle-cars/ (https://www.motortrend.com/news/mopar-launches-modern-v-8-crate-engine-kits-for-classic-muscle-cars/)
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 07, 2019, 12:48:32
The engine has to be 2014 or newer for that kit.
Coolness factor Yes! Most bang for the buck? No.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: lsm360 on September 07, 2019, 17:24:06
The engine has to be 2014 or newer for that kit.
Coolness factor Yes! Most bang for the buck? No.

No I was just thinking about his passing emissions with ease too. Many used pulled out of crashed cars :( 2014 and newer with good engines on ebay. I wouldn't want to go much older than a 2014 anyhow.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: lsm360 on September 07, 2019, 17:30:50
Something like this maybe

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-Dodge-Challenger-5-7L-Hemi-Engine-Dropout-Changeover-31k-Miles/143342999402?
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 07, 2019, 19:51:58
Thats a good find with 31,000 miles on it.
That engine and the kit is roughly $6,000
Plus mounts and adapters to fit into what ever.
If I had that deep of pockets it would be cool in one of my M Coupes.
In my mind 6,000 could build one hell of a 360 and a built 727 and bolt right in.
I would go all out and get a 392 485hp :evil:
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 270SE on September 08, 2019, 13:48:40
Mopar Performance makes an all inclusive crate hemi for older cars with modules, sensors, accelerator cables, wire harness, and all those peripheral items that are usually the ones that drive you absolutely nuts. However, it's stated for 1975 and older, but I've wondered for quite sometime how adaptable this would be to an M or F body. While I love the 318/360, you have to admit it would be fun to have a smooth idling, easy starting in all weather, fuel efficient (relatively speaking), beast like this in an M or F. You know, just to go along with our other cars that retain the old school original engines.


https://www.motortrend.com/news/mopar-launches-modern-v-8-crate-engine-kits-for-classic-muscle-cars/ (https://www.motortrend.com/news/mopar-launches-modern-v-8-crate-engine-kits-for-classic-muscle-cars/)
1975 is totally arbitrary. The mounts didn't really change after that and there was another year of As, that was the redesign for late Bs, and while F/J/Ms have unique pedals, much of the hard suspension components aren't so different from late Bs.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: DobaMark on September 09, 2019, 07:30:39
1975 is specified most likely for emissions, not physical fitment, reasons.
The main reason is probably because of the catalytic converter requirements for 1976. My guess is the computer for this installation isn't designed for catalyst, but it would be something a stock late model Hemi computer would be.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Rox86 on September 09, 2019, 08:23:31
That's why I was looking at engines out of wrecked cars. $7k for crate engine and harness plus the ecu's for 2015+ are locked and cost like $1500. I was finding low mileage 2005-2010 engines all day long for $2k with everything.


I know the 2011+ engines are better. My 2011 charger had VVT and cylinder deactivation. But, that's a lot more computer stuff to work around and more to go wrong.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: DobaMark on September 09, 2019, 12:25:38
Almost all the cars have cylinder deactivation. I know my 2005 300C and 2007 Magnum Hemi's did.
it's not impossible. It's just a bit expensive, even with a cheaper earlier engine. Butit would be nice when done.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: brotherGood on September 11, 2019, 13:38:59
The 318/360/magnum option is by far the best financial option, but Im for the 5.7 swap myself. I've seen enough done in F's alone to make me reconsider phase 2 for my car. My 318 with magnum heads runs extremely stout, but the pull out 5.7s with the harnesses, it looks fairly simple (big thing seems to be getting all the wiring with the engine/controllers)
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Darth-Car on September 11, 2019, 15:31:07
I wonder how many computers you have to grab to make the thing work right?  Is it going to throw a fit when it has no inputs from an electronic trany, or cruise control systems, and any oter myriad of goofy system sensors?  What about interior computers, or dash clusters, would you need those too?  I'm sure you can make it run, but if it is in limp mode, or some other form of trickery contrived sensor system bypass, your mileage may be lousy. :(
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: DobaMark on September 11, 2019, 16:49:36
I wonder how many computers you have to grab to make the thing work right?  Is it going to throw a fit when it has no inputs from an electronic trany, or cruise control systems, and any oter myriad of goofy system sensors?  What about interior computers, or dash clusters, would you need those too?  I'm sure you can make it run, but if it is in limp mode, or some other form of trickery contrived sensor system bypass, your mileage may be lousy. :(
This modern Hemi swap has been done enough there are lots of swaps and how tos on the internet. From stand alone engines to making a lot of the modern electronics work in an older car, the info is out there. It’s a great swap. Not the easiest, but quite rewarding.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Mike on September 11, 2019, 17:46:25
I wonder how many computers you have to grab to make the thing work right?  Is it going to throw a fit when it has no inputs from an electronic trany, or cruise control systems, and any oter myriad of goofy system sensors?  What about interior computers, or dash clusters, would you need those too?  I'm sure you can make it run, but if it is in limp mode, or some other form of trickery contrived sensor system bypass, your mileage may be lousy. :(

And not just the computers but looking for the right inputs from them too. But there's been enough aftermarket swaps now that I'm sure people are either tuning the main computer or using an aftermarket one that deals with it all.
One thing I haven't heard, although I never really paid much attention either to be honest, is do the aftermarket swaps still use the cylinder deactivation and variable timing or is it straight V8 all the time. I guess maybe both depending on how much someone wants to spend on the computer and time to get it all setup.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: brotherGood on September 13, 2019, 04:57:32
Most swaps that I've heard did not utilize the MDS/VVT. A majority of them however have been for racing applications though, so that's just something extra that could cause a problem.

I'm slowly starting to obtain more info on the swap myself..just in case I end up going down that path. Former member here 1980Volare has a turbo 5.7 in his now..but hes racing it more than anything. Last time we talked, we talked about that and he said it's really not much more work than putting a 5.9 magnum in..and the payoff is much more in return.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: lsm360 on September 13, 2019, 19:32:47
DobaMark is right, it's been done many times now and the information is out there, and should be very rewarding in regards to power, drivability and fuel mileage.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: brotherGood on September 13, 2019, 20:28:11
DobaMark is right, it's been done many times now and the information is out there, and should be very rewarding in regards to power, drivability and fuel mileage.

So, when are you starting yours? Haha
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 14, 2019, 07:55:06
So, when are you starting yours? Haha
Yeah, Put a Hemi in the Power Wagon :D
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: lsm360 on September 14, 2019, 16:59:35
I've already began researching. That's how I know it's been done so many times. I would absolutely love a 6.4 in my Power Wagon. I'm not sure though if I want to modify it in that way.

One thing I know for sure; I MUST ALWAYS have and old school Mopar! That's my first love. But keeping the factory look but swapping in a 6.4 or 6.1 in my Power Wagon would be awesome, and yes, I am considering. Ramchargercentral.com has a lot of info, along with other sites.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: wolfsblood07 on September 14, 2019, 22:11:53
My personal view is that the best way to enjoy a car is to keep it original.  If I had the money to buy an M body as a 2nd car, I would want it to have the old reliable 318 cubic inch V8 with a factory-spec carburetor, to get the true experience of the car.  If you really want a 3rd gen Hemi, which is a great engine, you can get a used Charger at a decent price and not have to worry about swapping engines.
If you do the engine swap on the Fifth Avenue, it's a lot of work, time and money and even if all goes well, you have a car that might have less collector value than before.  If it really needs a new engine, I'd rather put in another 318 from that era.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 270SE on September 14, 2019, 23:58:38
I wonder how many computers you have to grab to make the thing work right?  Is it going to throw a fit when it has no inputs from an electronic trany, or cruise control systems, and any oter myriad of goofy system sensors?  What about interior computers, or dash clusters, would you need those too?  I'm sure you can make it run, but if it is in limp mode, or some other form of trickery contrived sensor system bypass, your mileage may be lousy. :(
That'd all depend. On the one hand, the '09+ motors are better, but an early 6.1 isn't outrageously priced and early 5.7 donors can be affordable enough to risk it. 2006 is the newest I've seen without security, which makes the OE computer swap easy but still means for any of the cars you'll need a pan or a good deal of work. If you take the whole underhood wiring, it becomes more about making sure the right things are powered in the right instances than anything else. Lately I've been kind of wanting to Hemi swap a WJ because I'm a bit of an idiot.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 15, 2019, 05:22:36
My personal view is that the best way to enjoy a car is to keep it original.  If I had the money to buy an M body as a 2nd car, I would want it to have the old reliable 318 cubic inch V8 with a factory-spec carburetor, to get the true experience of the car.  If you really want a 3rd gen Hemi, which is a great engine, you can get a used Charger at a decent price and not have to worry about swapping engines.
If you do the engine swap on the 5th Avenue, it's a lot of work, time and money and even if all goes well, you have a car that might have less collector value than before.  If it really needs a new engine, I'd rather put in another 318 from that era.
:thumb:
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: brotherGood on September 15, 2019, 08:25:41
Cant do this with a stock 318
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: 80 Lebaron Coupe on September 15, 2019, 14:58:41
Cant do this with a stock 318
That's because the stock 318 was never designed to do that.
That's why the 340 was invented.
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: Darth-Car on September 19, 2019, 07:17:39
That'd all depend. On the one hand, the '09+ motors are better, but an early 6.1 isn't outrageously priced and early 5.7 donors can be affordable enough to risk it. 2006 is the newest I've seen without security, which makes the OE computer swap easy but still means for any of the cars you'll need a pan or a good deal of work. If you take the whole underhood wiring, it becomes more about making sure the right things are powered in the right instances than anything else. Lately I've been kind of wanting to Hemi swap a WJ because I'm a bit of an idiot.
No WJ is complete without a Cummins 4BT! 
Title: Re: Gen 3 Hemi
Post by: stauwin on May 18, 2020, 15:44:58
I haven't read this entire thread and I know it has been a while since anyone has posted here, however, I thought might add that Mopar sells an emissions-control or "EC" kit for vehicles 1976-1995. From what I read at the beginning of the thread, this sounds like it would meet all of the requirements that you would need for CA emissions inspections.