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Author Topic: '87 Dip, problems and progress  (Read 5557 times)

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SgtRauksauff

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'87 Dip, problems and progress
« on: April 09, 2010, 19:24:33 »

**edit:  I renamed the thread, since it involves more than fuel lines (formerly titled "fuel lines, yay!!", and wanted to not start spewing more posts all over the forum.**

Greetings!

By way of introduction and my first post on this board, Here's a quick rundown on my car, and my first question:

I just picked up an '87 Diplomat, nothing too fancy.  Maroon, maroon interior, 318, 2bbl Lean-Burn, manual windows.  Sagging headliner, low tires, wouldn't start.  It had been sitting for a year or more.

First thing I did, was buy a new fuel pump for 22 bucks, and plopped it in.  Ran a line directly from the pump to a gas can, after cranking a bit, the car fired right up.

I wanted to check the tank out, because it was empty.  Nobody around has, or can get, a fuel tank lock ring or o-ring, so I didn't want to drop the tank and pull it apart right away.

I've got an external electric pump that I use on occasion for draining tanks and starting cars with no tanks, so I got a purolator clear filter, stuck it on the feed hose coming out of the tank,
ran that to the electric pump, poured a couple gallons into the tank, and started pumping away.  no gunk or dirt or ugliness, the gas came out as clear as it was when I poured it in.

so, I buttoned up the tank end, and put the filter on the feed hose above the front wheelwell, and kicked on the pump.  nope, nothing.  turns out, the line rusted about a foot back from he bottom of the wheel arch.

Easy, run new lines from front to back, that should only take a couple hours tops.

Now for my question:

5/16" is the main feed line.  Itty-Bitty is the size of the vent line (or 3/16-1/4"-ish).  Is 5-16" the size of the return line off of the fuel filter, or is that smaller?  Looks kinda like the same size as the feed, at least at the tank end, but the hose sizes look different at the fuel pump end.

Hopefully, I'll have this car on the road come the end of the weekend!

Thanks much,

--sarge
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 10:54:55 by SgtRauksauff »
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moparmuscle88

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2010, 19:30:06 »

i am pretty sure its 5/16, but if your running new lines, you can run whatever size you want for them because they use a piece of rubber line as the coupling to connect it to the pump and the tnk pickup
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Erics5th

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 10:30:48 »

When you get your rubber line, get hose rated for fuel injection. The new blends in gas attacks the non-fuel injected hose and causes them to crack..remember that fire I had because of older, cracked hose?
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olafla

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 20:37:37 »

Hi guys. I just had a thread about the hoses on slantsix.org, see http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39706. I live in Norway, and some fuel is mixed with 15% ethanol over here, and that is BAAD news for old fuel hoses! This is a very serious matter, as it can create a fatal fuel leak! Please take care!
Olaf
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SgtRauksauff

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 23:26:11 »

Well, what I ended up doing, was cutting the lines right above the leaf spring shackle, and cutting the rubber hoses just before the front wheelwell.

Then, I got a 5ft section each of 5/16, 1/4, and 3/16 line, did a little bending of the ends, just to separate them from each other, and used some fuel hose and clamps to connect them.

Actually, for the charcoal canister line, I just used some 7/64" vacuum hose, as that's all that could be found. in that size. I used 1/4" hose for the return line off of the fuel filter, and 5/16" hose for the main feed line.
I didn't actually use fuel injection hose, because I didn't have any at the time.  I might just change that later on, after reading about those horror stories.

I also put a clear purolator fuel filter BEFORE the fuel pump, so I can see just what's coming from the tank.  If it starts to look really nasty, I'll drop the tank and clean it out.  I got a locking ring and o-ring on the way from RockAuto.com, less than 4 bucks!!

Also changed the air filter, the oil filter, and the oil, and new brake shoes on the passenger side.  Oh, and I put on my fresh new license plates!

Tomorrow will see new rear shocks, and the other side's brake shoes, and new plugs, cap, and rotor.  Oh, and new wiper blades, and any light bulbs that are burnt out.  Plug wires will be arriving on Monday or Tuesday, as will the front brake pads.

Hopefully, the brake lines aren't in the same boat as the fuel lines.  Which reminds, me, the air tube going into the catalytic converter is broken right at the cat.  What have you guys done as far as repairing that sort of thing?  I'm thinking a wire-wheel on a drill to clean it up, and weld it back on.  Fortunately, I don't need to get smog-checked or anything here in Wisconsin, otherwise I think this car would be off the road for quite a bit longer.

Looking at the pan diagrams, it seems I've got a 904 transmission.  Haven't really started digging into it yet, but what's the 'preferred' transmisison, the 904, or the 727?  Not that I plan on making changes anytime soon.

That's all for today! Hopefully, this isn't too much off topic, as none of this was performed in the garage, but out in the driveway.  Seems like the garage, rather than a place to park cars, is  a place to store and organize tools.  lol!

Oh, and I suppose I may as well put up some pictures.

Here's the photo I took last September, when I first bought the car (it sat there all winter, as I didn't have a place to put it, plus the owner needed to get me the proper paperwork for the title transeR:


Kinda dirty, from tree sap and other crap, but the grill is PERFECT!!  and just a tiny tiny bit of the chrome trim under the passenger hi-beam light , otherwise all the trim on the car is awesome!




This thing is in Wisconsin, and it's freakin CLEAN!!  There's a Rusty Jones sticker in the back window, so it was anti-rust treated at some point, which is a GOOD thing:
Rockers and Door Bottoms on a 23-year-old Wisconsin car don't come much cleaner than this!!


--sarge
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 23:35:27 by SgtRauksauff »
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spike

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 23:41:55 »

nice dip. are you in WI? if so where at?

MarkM

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 12:55:01 »

SgtRauksauff, that is absolutely beautiful.  That can't be an original Wisconsin car...  What kind of undercoating do you guys have up there?  Rubberized or oil?

As far as the cat goes, cut off the tube close to the cat and fold it over on it self twice with a pair of vice grips.  Then pull the rest of the air tubing out and toss the air pump.  You don't need it if you don't have smog checks.   :thumb:
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SgtRauksauff

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 19:49:55 »

spike, I'm in Baraboo.

Mr. Mullins, I actually just welded it back on.  I figured, unless/until I upgrade the exhaust, that air pump injecting fresh(er) air into the main cat can only help keep the cat clean and un-clogged!

Got everything done today, now I just gotta get some better tires on it and start driving it around to find out what else needs fixin'...  It's got Firestone 'Supremes' right now, and they're kinda dry-rotting/cracking/unsafe, I just don't trust'em.

Seems I've got 6.5" wheels on this car..  What size tires are a common upgrade from the 205/75-15?  Right now, there's a Kuhmo with the best tread, and it's only got a tread-width of 5.75", the rim is noticeably wider than the tread. 

--sarge
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Erics5th

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 01:33:05 »

I went to a 215/70R-15 on police rims..The tires are the same diamiter as the 205/75's, and you don't have to change the speedometer gear in the transmission, so your speedo will be accurate.
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DobaMark

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2010, 04:01:16 »

You should have 15x7 rims, they were what was standard in either police or civilian trim.
I agree, 215-70-15 tires are the simplest upgrade that keeps the speedometer accurate.
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SgtRauksauff

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Re: Fuel Lines, yay!
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2010, 12:43:09 »

yeah, that's what I've pretty much decided, either the 215, or the 225, both /70-15.  I'm kinda leaning towards the 225's actually.

At first, I thought they might have been 15x7's, but I remembered that the tire balancer I just got had big measuring caliper.  I measured from bead to bead, and it came out 6.5.  I cross-checked it with some other rims I have with known widths, and they came out to what they should be.  the width-gauge is something along these lines:


I suppose it depends on where you actually measure, though.  From outside-Edge to outside-Edge, across the top of the rim, I'm sure it measures 7", but from bead to bead, just inside the rim, they only come to 6.5.

The spare's flat, and blown-out/separated junk, so I'll pull that one off and check the markings on the rims.

I've also got a set of 15x8 steelies, that my dad got from a '69 road runner, that I think with some 245/60-15's would be absolute sweetness.  But before I do any performance tires, basically every bushing on the car needs to be replaced.

Looks like the driver-side tab for the swaybar endlinks broke off of the LCA, and the passenger-side bushings are not there, so there's effectively no swaybar in the front right now.

--sarge
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 14:35:16 by SgtRauksauff »
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SgtRauksauff

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new problem: feels like fuel starvation
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2010, 20:47:06 »

I'm having a wierd problem, now that I actually got the car out on the road for more than 15 minutes.  Feels like a fueling issue to me, but I'm not sure Here's my description, with my thoughts, let me know if you think I'm on the right track:

Drove the car to work today, and a bit yesterday, and it seemed fine, with maybe a slight stumble/hiccup going into 3rd gear. Today, when getting onto the interstate, I had to accelerate slower than I'd have liked, because with the pedal too far down, it started seemingly gasping for breath a bit.  Driving home, it seemed just fine, until just after pulling out of a parking lot, barely into 2nd gear, around 30-ish mph, the engine actually completely died.  I coasted it into a gas station's parking lot, turned the ignition off, cranked it over, and it fired right up.  Drove it home no problem.  Went to leave home less than 5 minutes later (just picked up a couple wrenches, I was going to hit up a salvage yard on my way to picking up some new tires). Got through town easily enough, then started uphill out of town at the last stoplight. The car just seemed to sputter and buck, so I turned off, gave it some throttle, worked fine up to about 60.  Did a U-turn, same thing back, just fine. out on the road, it lasted for about 1 mile before the same symptoms were back.  I ended up getting back home by turning it off and coasting, then starting it and giving it a bit more momentum before it finally died again, rinse, repeat.  There's no backfiring that I can tell, and no smell of gas  No black smoke from the tailpipe.

Now, when I turn the key off, I feel the gas pedal snap back a bit.  Is it supposed to do that?  There's a solenoid on the side of the carb that opens the throttle, is that just part of the fast-idle circuit?  That's something I need to address as well, because upon first start, more often than not, the car wants to run at a WAY faster idle than I feel comfortable with.

But, back to the vapor lock.  I've never run across it before, and am not sure exactly how it feels when driving.

Right now, in order of likelihood, I think I've got
1) dirt/crap/scum/scale/debris in the gas tank, causing the screen to clog, and no gas to travel the lines
2) broken fuel line somewhere still, sucking air but not fuel.
3) vapor lock?
4) would clogged cats cause this?
4) messed up carb somehow causing bad mojo
5) somebody doesn't like me, and put a voodoo hex on me.


thanks,

--sarge
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270SE

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Re: '87 Dip, problems and progress (renamed thread)
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 09:56:12 »

Try sticking the choke open. Part of it may be improperly connected or disfunctional. If that's the case it will stall the motor AND vapor-lock it. Honestly, I'd get another carb and get rid of the choke altogether. They malfunction too much on 2bbl's to be of any more use than harm. Otherwise, 4bbl swap time. It will only improve hp minimally but it will greatly improve drivability. A quick temporary fix you can do is to tie the choke open with some sturdy metal.
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DobaMark

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Re: '87 Dip, problems and progress (renamed thread)
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 10:27:39 »

I've never had a serious choke problem on any car except on a 2.2 carb engine.  If you suspect the choke, it's easy to confirm.  Get the car up to temperature and see if the choke is open.  If so, then I would leave it.  Sometimes spraying the choke spring down with WD-40 or carb cleaner can make it work a little better.  I would never disable the carb on a car you intend to drive regularly.

I also don't think it's the converters being plugged either.  When I had that issue years ago, the car had to cool a bit before it it restarted and ran anywhere close to normal.  The spark plugs were also very black.  Engine vacuum would drop quite fast as the converters plugged as they warmed up.

I think the likely cause is fuel related.  Maybe you are sucking up junk in the tank or water.  Or maybe the tank's not venting.  Or maybe it's flooding because there's a float problem.

There are really three things involved in idle speed.  Fast idle should still be mechanically controlled I beleive.  It's adjustable on on the carb.  Base warm idle is set to the specified RPM and then there's a stepper or kicker that should kick up the idle speed under certain conditions like AC load.  It takes a buit of effort to set all this and a factory service manual comes in handy.  Also, modern gas tends to varnish up the carbs wghen gasoline sets in them a while.  You may have issues from the car just sitting so long.
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270SE

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Re: '87 Dip, problems and progress (renamed thread)
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 10:35:38 »

Car was undrivable on cold days because of choke sticking. Much easier fighting against not having a choke than getting vapor-locked. Sticking the choke open fixed it. I tied it to something on the air cleaner until I got rid of the 2bbl. That was my problem so I'll never rule it out.

The choke was not functioning right and would suck shut under moderate acceleration and stall the car. Whenever it happened I had to quickly put it in park, put on parking brake, shut it down, pop the hood, and stick open the choke. Would have been easier to get rid of it. I've driven without a choke plenty. I'm not in that cold of a climate but it usually only stalls at stop signs and such so it's not that hard to just fire it back up and go back on the way.
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